Recently my sister-in-law, Karen, posted a religious quote on her Facebook page that I found insulting. Here is the quote.
"A patriot without religion in my estimation is as great a paradox as an honest Man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society?....The Scriptures tell us "righteousness exalteth a Nation." – Abigail Adams
And this is how the email discussion went. (Angela is my wife)
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Karen,
Do you honestly believe that I am a dishonest, immoral and vicious person just because I do not believe in a god? Why would you post such hurtful things?
Tom
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Tom, no offense was ever intended. I forget Angela is an Atheiest which is a foreign concept to me. I do not understan how one cannot believe in God or His existance. Our country was founded on Faith, a belief in God, a Supreme being. Every signer of the Declaration had some form of belief of a higher being. They were of all faiths.( I should have put that remark up only for my political and conservative friends, which I normally do. I will delete it, as it was an oversite on my part. ) If it wasn't for their faith and belief, we would not have an United States of America. I believe that as strongly (I guess) as Angela believes there isn't a God (I may not know the true meaning of an atheiest as I have been reading so many different ideas coming from those who don't believe and I find it confusing) I won't make that mistake again, but I really don't understand............but I believe just as strongly in God and Jesus. Again, there was no intent to hurt let alone be vicious (I can tell you a few things about being vicious when it comes to my beliefs). It won't happen again
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Karen,
You wrote, “I may not know the true meaning of an atheiest as I have been reading so many different ideas coming from those who don't believe and I find it confusing” and "Angela believes there isn't a God". Actually, it is incorrect to say Angela BELIEVES there isn't a God. Angela does NOT BELIEVE in a God. It may sound like the same thing, but there really is a big difference. Just as bald is not a hair color. Off is not a TV channel. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is a LACK of a belief in a God. If you don't believe in a God, you are, by definition, an atheist. Nothing more, nothing less. It really is as simple as that. Atheism is not an organization you join. It is not something you convert to. There are no dogmas, creeds or tenets. It's just a word that describes a particular person, much in the same way the words "caucasian" or "woman" describe a particular person. If you prefer to call me a nonbeliever or just "the one who does not believe in a God", it doesn't matter to me. It's just a word. Just as you may not believe in fairies, unicorns or even other Gods, an atheist feels the same about all possible Gods. It would be incorrect to say I believe those things do not exist, I just have no reason to believe that they do exist. I guess you could use the words "afairiest" and “aunicornist" to describe me as well. When it comes to Zeus, Vishnu or the thousands of other possible Gods, you are atheistic towards those Gods. I am just atheistic toward one more God than you.
What an atheist believes when it comes to political, social, economic, or any other issue, is up to each individual atheist and has nothing to do with atheism. When an atheist sheds himself of religion, I think it is only natural to hold certain views that coincide with nonbelief. For example, when the scientific community says that the earth is 4 billion years old and God of the Bible says it is 6,000 years old, he'll tend to side with the scientists because, for one, he does not believe in that God. Now although most atheists may believe the earth is 4 billion years old, that is not a “requirement” for being an atheist. Does the fact that you do not believe in unicorns affect your life in any way? Would you care if anyone else believed in unicorns? Would you want to take away their belief in unicorns? I’m guessing not. Now if millions of other Americans believed in unicorns, and they wanted to use the word of unicorns to legislate laws, and claim you cannot be a good person if you do not believe in unicorns, I believe that would change the playing field a bit for you. That’s the predicament I am in.
Nonbelievers have principles and morals just as any other human being does. We want our families to be healthy, safe and happy. We care about and want the world to be a better place for everyone on it. We volunteer in our communities. We feel love, happiness, excitement, fear, sadness and anger. And yes, I too am an atheist.
You wrote, "If it wasn't for their faith and belief, we would not have a United States of America." I believe you can accomplish great things without faith, as many nonbelievers have done. Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt and Lance Armstrong have formed multiple charities and contributed millions (and in some cases billions) of dollars for their causes. Bob Geldof (organizer of Live Aid), Mark Zuckerberg (founder of Facebook), Thomas Edison, Mark Twain, Pat Tillman, Billy Joel, Peter Fonda, James Cameron, Katharine Hepburn, Ernest Hemingway, Alan Alda, Gene Roddenberry, Jack Nicholson, George Clooney, Carl Reiner, Diane Keaton, Andy Rooney and Ted Williams are also just a few of the many known atheists who have contributed to society in their own way.
Here is a very extensive list of famous nonbelievers…
http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/Main_Page
Although the founding fathers were believers of one sort or another, we do not know that the US would have been different had they held atheistic views. I have no reason to believe that it couldn’t have been the same or an even better place today had that been the case, but why speculate on what might have been instead of what is?
You also wrote, "I should have put that remark up only for my political and conservative friends". This sounds as if you believe your post was correct, that you believe I am an immoral, dishonest and openly vicious person because I do not believe in a God, but you didn't intend for me to know this is how you feel. Am I wrong about this?
You wrote, “Again, there was no intent to hurt let alone be vicious (I can tell you a few things about being vicious when it comes to my beliefs)”. I didn't say you were vicious, and I am not sure where this idea came from, if that’s what you’re saying. I am curious though what you meant by “being vicious when it comes to my beliefs.”
If you would like to continue a discussion about this, I am willing to give it a try, but I don't want it to turn into a bitter, heated discussion which ends in bad feelings. My intent is certainly not to offend you, and likewise I would like to be given the same consideration. We can agree to disagree if you prefer, or we can try an open, honest dialogue which might end with both parties understanding one another better. I will say that, just as you are firm in your beliefs, so am I, so such a discussion would not be about changing beliefs, just shedding misconceptions.
Tom
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Tom
Tom, I get what you are saying and you are incorrect to say I believe you are immoral etc. Doesn't matter if I believe in unicorns.not relevant....and yes, by posting I do believe that God had, has , and will continue to intervene for us (Divine Intervention). It has everything to do with faith and nothing to do with hate....don't take it so personally...it's my opinion HE exists and I believe by prayiong, you and others will, could, or seek to find HIM to be real. People can call me a flaming idiot for what I believe. It doesn't matter I take no offense.......He's real to me, just as other things are real to you. I don't understand why anyone would construe this as vicious. It's not. Zeus doesn't exist for me and if others think he does and he's they way to go and I don't, so be it. My questiion is, why react so intensly.....what is it that makes one bristle so? Why think it's a personal attack rather than just an opinion and belief? I've been called names because I have Christian and conservative beliefs, been made fun of, (nasty names too, not just stupid or dumb) but that's OK It doesn't bother me and I just let God handle it. Maybe you should really think about why this bothers you so much. I don'y know the answer to that but we can believe different things and we both have the right to our opinions, and to voice them......... it's OK to say so and if you think I'm on the wrong track for believing in God and Jesus and Divine Intervention and Heaven and Hell and Satan and his angels, so be it. I am NOT offended, not in the least, which is why I'm puzzled by your reaction. We can agree to disagree.....I will say this, in the end, if I am wrong and there is no God(just saying for arguments sake i guess, cos I DO believe) then, who cares? Nothing lost, nothing gained. BUT, if I'm right (have to say I think I am) I'd rather be on this end than the other. Someone recently said this to me so I am just repeating because it's something to think about. Thanks for sharing............and I am not, never was, offended
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I really don't know what she was even talking about. She doesn't seem to make much sense to me. She didn't even really answer my questions or respond to my comments. It's as if she didn't even realize what point I was trying to make. She just went on about her religion. I know you may not agree with my argument, but I think I stated my case reasonably and logically. What do you think about this?
"A patriot without religion in my estimation is as great a paradox as an honest Man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society?....The Scriptures tell us "righteousness exalteth a Nation." – Abigail Adams
And this is how the email discussion went. (Angela is my wife)
***********
Karen,
Do you honestly believe that I am a dishonest, immoral and vicious person just because I do not believe in a god? Why would you post such hurtful things?
Tom
***********
Tom, no offense was ever intended. I forget Angela is an Atheiest which is a foreign concept to me. I do not understan how one cannot believe in God or His existance. Our country was founded on Faith, a belief in God, a Supreme being. Every signer of the Declaration had some form of belief of a higher being. They were of all faiths.( I should have put that remark up only for my political and conservative friends, which I normally do. I will delete it, as it was an oversite on my part. ) If it wasn't for their faith and belief, we would not have an United States of America. I believe that as strongly (I guess) as Angela believes there isn't a God (I may not know the true meaning of an atheiest as I have been reading so many different ideas coming from those who don't believe and I find it confusing) I won't make that mistake again, but I really don't understand............but I believe just as strongly in God and Jesus. Again, there was no intent to hurt let alone be vicious (I can tell you a few things about being vicious when it comes to my beliefs). It won't happen again
***********
Karen,
You wrote, “I may not know the true meaning of an atheiest as I have been reading so many different ideas coming from those who don't believe and I find it confusing” and "Angela believes there isn't a God". Actually, it is incorrect to say Angela BELIEVES there isn't a God. Angela does NOT BELIEVE in a God. It may sound like the same thing, but there really is a big difference. Just as bald is not a hair color. Off is not a TV channel. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is a LACK of a belief in a God. If you don't believe in a God, you are, by definition, an atheist. Nothing more, nothing less. It really is as simple as that. Atheism is not an organization you join. It is not something you convert to. There are no dogmas, creeds or tenets. It's just a word that describes a particular person, much in the same way the words "caucasian" or "woman" describe a particular person. If you prefer to call me a nonbeliever or just "the one who does not believe in a God", it doesn't matter to me. It's just a word. Just as you may not believe in fairies, unicorns or even other Gods, an atheist feels the same about all possible Gods. It would be incorrect to say I believe those things do not exist, I just have no reason to believe that they do exist. I guess you could use the words "afairiest" and “aunicornist" to describe me as well. When it comes to Zeus, Vishnu or the thousands of other possible Gods, you are atheistic towards those Gods. I am just atheistic toward one more God than you.
What an atheist believes when it comes to political, social, economic, or any other issue, is up to each individual atheist and has nothing to do with atheism. When an atheist sheds himself of religion, I think it is only natural to hold certain views that coincide with nonbelief. For example, when the scientific community says that the earth is 4 billion years old and God of the Bible says it is 6,000 years old, he'll tend to side with the scientists because, for one, he does not believe in that God. Now although most atheists may believe the earth is 4 billion years old, that is not a “requirement” for being an atheist. Does the fact that you do not believe in unicorns affect your life in any way? Would you care if anyone else believed in unicorns? Would you want to take away their belief in unicorns? I’m guessing not. Now if millions of other Americans believed in unicorns, and they wanted to use the word of unicorns to legislate laws, and claim you cannot be a good person if you do not believe in unicorns, I believe that would change the playing field a bit for you. That’s the predicament I am in.
Nonbelievers have principles and morals just as any other human being does. We want our families to be healthy, safe and happy. We care about and want the world to be a better place for everyone on it. We volunteer in our communities. We feel love, happiness, excitement, fear, sadness and anger. And yes, I too am an atheist.
You wrote, "If it wasn't for their faith and belief, we would not have a United States of America." I believe you can accomplish great things without faith, as many nonbelievers have done. Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt and Lance Armstrong have formed multiple charities and contributed millions (and in some cases billions) of dollars for their causes. Bob Geldof (organizer of Live Aid), Mark Zuckerberg (founder of Facebook), Thomas Edison, Mark Twain, Pat Tillman, Billy Joel, Peter Fonda, James Cameron, Katharine Hepburn, Ernest Hemingway, Alan Alda, Gene Roddenberry, Jack Nicholson, George Clooney, Carl Reiner, Diane Keaton, Andy Rooney and Ted Williams are also just a few of the many known atheists who have contributed to society in their own way.
Here is a very extensive list of famous nonbelievers…
http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/Main_Page
Although the founding fathers were believers of one sort or another, we do not know that the US would have been different had they held atheistic views. I have no reason to believe that it couldn’t have been the same or an even better place today had that been the case, but why speculate on what might have been instead of what is?
You also wrote, "I should have put that remark up only for my political and conservative friends". This sounds as if you believe your post was correct, that you believe I am an immoral, dishonest and openly vicious person because I do not believe in a God, but you didn't intend for me to know this is how you feel. Am I wrong about this?
You wrote, “Again, there was no intent to hurt let alone be vicious (I can tell you a few things about being vicious when it comes to my beliefs)”. I didn't say you were vicious, and I am not sure where this idea came from, if that’s what you’re saying. I am curious though what you meant by “being vicious when it comes to my beliefs.”
If you would like to continue a discussion about this, I am willing to give it a try, but I don't want it to turn into a bitter, heated discussion which ends in bad feelings. My intent is certainly not to offend you, and likewise I would like to be given the same consideration. We can agree to disagree if you prefer, or we can try an open, honest dialogue which might end with both parties understanding one another better. I will say that, just as you are firm in your beliefs, so am I, so such a discussion would not be about changing beliefs, just shedding misconceptions.
Tom
************
Tom
Tom, I get what you are saying and you are incorrect to say I believe you are immoral etc. Doesn't matter if I believe in unicorns.not relevant....and yes, by posting I do believe that God had, has , and will continue to intervene for us (Divine Intervention). It has everything to do with faith and nothing to do with hate....don't take it so personally...it's my opinion HE exists and I believe by prayiong, you and others will, could, or seek to find HIM to be real. People can call me a flaming idiot for what I believe. It doesn't matter I take no offense.......He's real to me, just as other things are real to you. I don't understand why anyone would construe this as vicious. It's not. Zeus doesn't exist for me and if others think he does and he's they way to go and I don't, so be it. My questiion is, why react so intensly.....what is it that makes one bristle so? Why think it's a personal attack rather than just an opinion and belief? I've been called names because I have Christian and conservative beliefs, been made fun of, (nasty names too, not just stupid or dumb) but that's OK It doesn't bother me and I just let God handle it. Maybe you should really think about why this bothers you so much. I don'y know the answer to that but we can believe different things and we both have the right to our opinions, and to voice them......... it's OK to say so and if you think I'm on the wrong track for believing in God and Jesus and Divine Intervention and Heaven and Hell and Satan and his angels, so be it. I am NOT offended, not in the least, which is why I'm puzzled by your reaction. We can agree to disagree.....I will say this, in the end, if I am wrong and there is no God(just saying for arguments sake i guess, cos I DO believe) then, who cares? Nothing lost, nothing gained. BUT, if I'm right (have to say I think I am) I'd rather be on this end than the other. Someone recently said this to me so I am just repeating because it's something to think about. Thanks for sharing............and I am not, never was, offended
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I really don't know what she was even talking about. She doesn't seem to make much sense to me. She didn't even really answer my questions or respond to my comments. It's as if she didn't even realize what point I was trying to make. She just went on about her religion. I know you may not agree with my argument, but I think I stated my case reasonably and logically. What do you think about this?